Title: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 03:55:25 pm Phonotactics deals with the combinations of phonemes that are allowed in a language. For example, "pit" can be a word in English, "spit" can be a word in English, but "fpit" can't because f and p can't go together. This video does a good job of explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Up5hSm7LYI Anyway, here's my proposal for Terris: Quote Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C) Here are the consonants/consonant combinations that should be allowed in the onset: b bl br bw by c cl cw d dj dl dw dz f fl fr fw fy g gl gr gw gy h j jl jw k kl kr kw* ky l m ml mw n nl nw p pl pr pw py q r s sl sw t tc tl ts tw v vl vr vw vy w x y z zl zw Every consonant is allowed in the coda except h and q. *this one is pretty similar to q; I'm not sure whether we should include it or not. Let me know what you think! Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: LLR on December 15, 2016, 04:21:30 pm I'm not a huge fan of consonant clusters ending in "l" - they sound awkward. Aside from "bl", "gl", "jl", and "vl", i propose we get rid of those. I'll add more later once I finish this essay I have to write.
Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 04:26:03 pm I'm not a huge fan of consonant clusters ending in "l" - they sound awkward. Aside from "bl", "gl", "jl", and "vl", i propose we get rid of those. I'll add more later once I finish this essay I have to write. Interesting idea; I actually like the idea of keeping only those four. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: LLR on December 15, 2016, 04:30:21 pm I also support the "sr" and "jr" sounds being included. Also, as an addition to my earlier suggestion, all onsets using plosives - especially double plosives - should be used as infrequently as possible.
Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 04:49:58 pm I also support the "sr" and "jr" sounds being included. Also, as an addition to my earlier suggestion, all onsets using plosives - especially double plosives - should be used as infrequently as possible. The reason I didn't include sr or jr (or zr or cr) is because it could get hard (though not impossible) to pronounce depending on which version of "r" you're using. But I can change that if you want. Also I'm now leaning towards not using kw (but still using gw). Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 04:55:48 pm Updated version (with discussed changes--I also added xw):
Quote Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C) Here are the consonants/consonant combinations that should be allowed in the onset: b bl br bw by c cw d dj dw dz f fr fw fy g gl gr gw gy h j jl jr(?) jw k kr ky l m mw n nw p pr pw py q r s sr(?) sw t tc ts tw v vl vr vw vy w x xw y z zw Every consonant is allowed in the coda except h and q. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: LLR on December 15, 2016, 04:59:28 pm May I also suggest excluding "x" from the coda? And perhaps having a few excpetions to the one-consonant coda? ("ng", "sk", "nd", "nt")?
By the way, I totally thank you for doing this and am not just giving you a hard time. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 05:15:00 pm May I also suggest excluding "x" from the coda? And perhaps having a few excpetions to the one-consonant coda? ("ng", "sk", "nd", "nt")? By the way, I totally thank you for doing this and am not just giving you a hard time. Excluding x from the coda? Sure. Exceptions to the one-consonant coda rule...sure, but I don't really like the idea of allowing ng. I'll make a potential list of allowable coda clusters. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: evergreen on December 15, 2016, 05:22:07 pm should i change "tarn" to "taren" then?
the onset list is p good but - why jl and not cl (/jr and not cr)? - i'd like to add fs/ks/ps and vz/gz/bz if y'alls're ok with that The reason I didn't include sr or jr (or zr or cr) is because it could get hard (though not impossible) to pronounce depending on which version of "r" you're using. But I can change that if you want. cr is fairly common in english (shrine, shrike, shriek, etc) fwiwpersonally i'd include cr/sr but not jr/zr (also entirely against excluding x from the coda :P) Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 05:28:36 pm New proposal based on the comments of LLR and evergreen (note that I allowed almost all r clusters in the coda):
Quote Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C)(C) Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the onset: b bl br bw by bz c cw d dj dw dz f fr fs fw fy g gl gr gw gy gz h j jl jr(?) jw k kr ks ky l m mw n nw p pr ps pw py q r s sr(?) sw t tc ts tw v vl vr vw vy vz w x xw y z zw Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the coda: b c ck ct cp d f g j l mb mp nd nt p q r rb rd rf rg rj rk rm rn rp rq rs rt rv rx rz s sk st sp t v w x y z @evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot. I also added q and x back into the allowable coda list. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: evergreen on December 15, 2016, 07:16:09 pm @evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot. it's common in german too :PI also added q and x back into the allowable coda list. (e.g. schreien, Schrank, schrecklich) Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: evergreen on December 15, 2016, 07:17:36 pm rq seems difficult tbh
Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 07:22:01 pm @evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot. it's common in german too :PI also added q and x back into the allowable coda list. (e.g. schreien, Schrank, schrecklich) I meant [r]. I'm not sure if that's a thing in your dialect or not. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 07:23:35 pm Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: evergreen on December 15, 2016, 07:30:15 pm yeah
@evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot. it's common in german too :PI also added q and x back into the allowable coda list. (e.g. schreien, Schrank, schrecklich) I meant [r]. I'm not sure if that's a thing in your dialect or not. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: evergreen on December 15, 2016, 07:33:12 pm ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda
Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: LLR on December 15, 2016, 07:39:21 pm ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 07:40:25 pm ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda Good point. I will add those when I get home. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 07:41:46 pm ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that. I don't think that's a good idea. I would support stuff like wide and down in English though. Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: LLR on December 15, 2016, 08:01:52 pm ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that. I don't think that's a good idea. I would support stuff like wide and down in English though. Oh I just assumed what I said was what evergreen meant... which is it? Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 08:16:04 pm ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that. I don't think that's a good idea. I would support stuff like wide and down in English though. Oh I just assumed what I said was what evergreen meant... which is it? Taken literally her post would encompass both. Anyway, new list: Quote Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C)(C) Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the onset: b bl br bw by bz c cw d dj dw dz f fr fs fw fy g gl gr gw gy gz h j jl jr(?) jw k kr ks ky l m mw n nw p pr ps pw py q r s sr(?) sw t tc ts tw v vl vr vw vy vz w x xw y z zw Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the coda: b c ck ct cp d f g j l mb mp nd nt p q r rb rd rf rg rj rk rm rn rp rs rt rv rx rz s sk st sp t v w wb wd wf wg wj wk wl wm wn wp wq wv wx wz x y yb yd yf yg yj yk yl ym yn yp yq ys yt yv yx yz z Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: LLR on December 15, 2016, 10:16:15 pm Thanks, Figueira! Big help. What next?
Title: Re: Phonotactics! Post by: Figueira on December 15, 2016, 10:29:22 pm Thanks, Figueira! Big help. What next? I guess if we're sticking with that phonotactics, we can go back to inventing words now. |