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Phonotactics!

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Figueira
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« on: December 15, 2016, 03:55:25 pm »

Phonotactics deals with the combinations of phonemes that are allowed in a language. For example, "pit" can be a word in English, "spit" can be a word in English, but "fpit" can't because f and p can't go together. This video does a good job of explaining it:



Anyway, here's my proposal for Terris:

Quote
Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C)

Here are the consonants/consonant combinations that should be allowed in the onset:

b bl br bw by
c cl cw
d dj dl dw dz
f fl fr fw fy
g gl gr gw gy
h
j jl jw
k kl kr kw* ky
l
m ml mw
n nl nw
p pl pr pw py
q
r
s sl sw
t tc tl ts tw
v vl vr vw vy
w
x
y
z zl zw

Every consonant is allowed in the coda except h and q.

*this one is pretty similar to q; I'm not sure whether we should include it or not.

Let me know what you think!
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LLR
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2016, 04:21:30 pm »

I'm not a huge fan of consonant clusters ending in "l" - they sound awkward. Aside from "bl", "gl", "jl", and "vl", i propose we get rid of those. I'll add more later once I finish this essay I have to write.
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Figueira
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2016, 04:26:03 pm »

I'm not a huge fan of consonant clusters ending in "l" - they sound awkward. Aside from "bl", "gl", "jl", and "vl", i propose we get rid of those. I'll add more later once I finish this essay I have to write.

Interesting idea; I actually like the idea of keeping only those four.
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LLR
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2016, 04:30:21 pm »

I also support the "sr" and "jr" sounds being included. Also, as an addition to my earlier suggestion, all onsets using plosives - especially double plosives - should be used as infrequently as possible.
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Figueira
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 04:49:58 pm »

I also support the "sr" and "jr" sounds being included. Also, as an addition to my earlier suggestion, all onsets using plosives - especially double plosives - should be used as infrequently as possible.

The reason I didn't include sr or jr (or zr or cr) is because it could get hard (though not impossible) to pronounce depending on which version of "r" you're using. But I can change that if you want.

Also I'm now leaning towards not using kw (but still using gw).
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Figueira
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 04:55:48 pm »

Updated version (with discussed changes--I also added xw):

Quote
Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C)

Here are the consonants/consonant combinations that should be allowed in the onset:

b bl br bw by
c cw
d dj dw dz
f fr fw fy
g gl gr gw gy
h
j jl jr(?) jw
k kr ky
l
m mw
n nw
p pr pw py
q
r
s sr(?) sw
t tc ts tw
v vl vr vw vy
w
x xw
y
z zw

Every consonant is allowed in the coda except h and q.
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LLR
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 04:59:28 pm »

May I also suggest excluding "x" from the coda? And perhaps having a few excpetions to the one-consonant coda? ("ng", "sk", "nd", "nt")?

By the way, I totally thank you for doing this and am not just giving you a hard time.
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Figueira
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 05:15:00 pm »

May I also suggest excluding "x" from the coda? And perhaps having a few excpetions to the one-consonant coda? ("ng", "sk", "nd", "nt")?

By the way, I totally thank you for doing this and am not just giving you a hard time.

Excluding x from the coda? Sure.

Exceptions to the one-consonant coda rule...sure, but I don't really like the idea of allowing ng. I'll make a potential list of allowable coda clusters.
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 05:22:07 pm »

should i change "tarn" to "taren" then?

the onset list is p good but

- why jl and not cl (/jr and not cr)?

- i'd like to add fs/ks/ps and vz/gz/bz if y'alls're ok with that

The reason I didn't include sr or jr (or zr or cr) is because it could get hard (though not impossible) to pronounce depending on which version of "r" you're using. But I can change that if you want.
cr is fairly common in english (shrine, shrike, shriek, etc) fwiw
personally i'd include cr/sr but not jr/zr

(also entirely against excluding x from the coda Tongue)
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Figueira
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 05:28:36 pm »

New proposal based on the comments of LLR and evergreen (note that I allowed almost all r clusters in the coda):

Quote
Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C)(C)

Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the onset:

b bl br bw by bz
c cw
d dj dw dz
f fr fs fw fy
g gl gr gw gy gz
h
j jl jr(?) jw
k kr ks ky
l
m mw
n nw
p pr ps pw py
q
r
s sr(?) sw
t tc ts tw
v vl vr vw vy vz
w
x xw
y
z zw

Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the coda:

b
c ck ct cp
d
f
g
j
l
mb mp
nd nt
p
q
r
rb rd rf rg rj rk rm rn rp rq rs rt rv rx rz
s sk st sp
t
v
w
x
y
z

@evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot.

I also added q and x back into the allowable coda list.
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 07:16:09 pm »

@evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot.

I also added q and x back into the allowable coda list.
it's common in german too Tongue
(e.g. schreien, Schrank, schrecklich)
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evergreen
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 07:17:36 pm »

rq seems difficult tbh
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Figueira
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 07:22:01 pm »

@evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot.

I also added q and x back into the allowable coda list.
it's common in german too Tongue
(e.g. schreien, Schrank, schrecklich)

I meant [r]. I'm not sure if that's a thing in your dialect or not.
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Figueira
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 07:23:35 pm »

rq seems difficult tbh

In the coda?
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evergreen
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 07:30:15 pm »

yeah

@evergreen: I was talking about the trilled r; I find cr hard to pronounce in that scenario. But maybe speakers of languages that actually have trills don't have that problem, so the problem is moot.

I also added q and x back into the allowable coda list.
it's common in german too Tongue
(e.g. schreien, Schrank, schrecklich)

I meant [r]. I'm not sure if that's a thing in your dialect or not.
yeh
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evergreen
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2016, 07:33:12 pm »

ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda
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LLR
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2016, 07:39:21 pm »

ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda

So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that.
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Figueira
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2016, 07:40:25 pm »

ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda

Good point. I will add those when I get home.
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2016, 07:41:46 pm »

ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda

So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that.

I don't think that's a good idea. I would support stuff like wide and down in English though.
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 08:01:52 pm »

ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda

So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that.

I don't think that's a good idea. I would support stuff like wide and down in English though.

Oh I just assumed what I said was what evergreen meant... which is it?
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Figueira
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2016, 08:16:04 pm »

ah! also we should allow w/y + any consonant in the coda

So like "isle" and "owl" in English? I like that.

I don't think that's a good idea. I would support stuff like wide and down in English though.

Oh I just assumed what I said was what evergreen meant... which is it?

Taken literally her post would encompass both.

Anyway, new list:

Quote
Acceptable syllables are (C)(C)V(C)(C)

Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the onset:

b bl br bw by bz
c cw
d dj dw dz
f fr fs fw fy
g gl gr gw gy gz
h
j jl jr(?) jw
k kr ks ky
l
m mw
n nw
p pr ps pw py
q
r
s sr(?) sw
t tc ts tw
v vl vr vw vy vz
w
x xw
y
z zw

Here are the consonants/consonant clusters that should be allowed in the coda:

b
c ck ct cp
d
f
g
j
l
mb mp
nd nt
p
q
r rb rd rf rg rj rk rm rn rp rs rt rv rx rz
s sk st sp
t
v
w wb wd wf wg wj wk wl wm wn wp wq wv wx wz
x
y yb yd yf yg yj yk yl ym yn yp yq ys yt yv yx yz
z
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LLR
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« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2016, 10:16:15 pm »

Thanks, Figueira! Big help. What next?
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Figueira
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2016, 10:29:22 pm »

Thanks, Figueira! Big help. What next?

I guess if we're sticking with that phonotactics, we can go back to inventing words now.
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